Why I haven't bought a MusicMan - an outsider's perspective.

[Bart B]

EB Musicman is a company which you can compare a bit with a fashion label, constantly innovating, following trends (sometimes , offering new fancy options, that makes it expensive ofcourse.

There is a great variety in options, you have the normal necks, SLO specials (sterling neck on stingray), you can buy a 'mere' 2eq stingray..

I think the way you look at musicman is quite down to earth and I really understand your criticism but, All companies do have their own character and choices in what they do and this innovation, fancy electronics,..it's musicman, when you don't like it, you just..shouldn't buy it, that goes for whichever guitar/bass.

Let Big Poppa and the crew make the choices in the company, we're just the bass players here ..and I bet they know more of econmics and marketing thn we do..

still...I think it's good that sometimes some criticism is posted..it keeps everybody sharp

Bart

[DrGonzo5150]

Originally Posted by BenjaminStrange

But Les Pauls DO come with single coils. They also come with various neck shapes, finish options, body shapes, electronics, etc., etc., etc. But there's more to the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul than just pickups (obviously). It's the whole package. Each offer many, many tweaks on that package, and each sell tons and tons of guitars because of it.

Those that are here regularly know that EBMM offers over 130,000 build options/codes on their instruments... (And just quitely, Gibson offer P90 flat wound single coils, which sound nothing remotely like fender standard single coils.)

In addition to that, EBMM are constantly evolving and work to pioneer devices such as the game changer. The versatility and tones available on the instruments are nuts. In a way, you're asking them to step back and offer a one trick pony... And why? Because you're too tight to pay for a bass that does exactly what you want and more!

If there is a legitimate demand for such a bass, i'm sure they would consider it... And if they do offer this in the future, great for you.

I personally don't believe there would be sufficient demand for such a bass, and know that you can't please every one all the time. Unfortunately, you're probably just one of those people..

[Freddels]

I don't see what Benjamin is doing here as trolling. It's really not his style. He's making some observations and trying to put an idea out there for those that can make a change. EBMM recently started making coated strings. I'm sure if someone came on here two years ago and suggested that they would have been met with the same resistance.

I tried the Big Al yesterday and the passive option was wonderful. I really wanted to try the 25th Ann with the Bongo sized neck and the same electronic pkg as the Big Al but I wasn't able to. Next time. I think that now that EBMM has developed the Bongo preamp with all the button options that we might see it in a few more offerings in the future.

Benjamin would probably like the 25th Ann with the passive option and the Bongo neck. He would probably prefer to have the option of not having to pay for the preamp and just get what he wants but that's not really an option at this time. Perhaps, he will become an endorsing artist for EBMM and he'll get a one off bass . . . maybe not. I know he was an endorsing artist for Mesa (not sure if he still is or not) so who knows.

So, suggestions and observations is how new products get developed and EBMM hasn't been one to sit around in the past, they're a forward looking company.

[oli@bass]

First of all, I'd like to say that I always welcome a intelligent discussion of available options and ideas for new ones. I am fully aware that we're talking about opinions and that we're only a few customers here, but I think that some of the offerings we recently saw (SLO neck, passive mode, vintage StingRay) had their roots in discussions like this (whether on this board or somewhere else).

Originally Posted by BenjaminStrange

I understand that my perfect neck wouldn't be a marketable option - but having two different neck options for each bass doesn't seem that difficult if they all use the same neck pocket.

You're overlooking the most obvious difference: The necks have all different lengths!

StingRay 4: 21 frets (StingRay neck with Sterling neck shape option)
StingRay 5: 22 frets (StingRay neck)
Sterling 4 & 5: 22 frets (Sterling neck)
Big AL: 22 frets (Sterling neck)
25th: 22 frets (Bongo neck shape)
Bongo: 24 frets (Bongo neck)

Originally Posted by BenjaminStrange

Eek... lots of negativity regarding P-basses and J-basses here.

I don't think that can be said as a general rule. The guy who owns this place loves them... and let's not forget that MusicMan was founded by Leo Fender as well. EBMM just evolved much more than Fender ever could.

Originally Posted by BenjaminStrange

Come to think of it, MM does this kind of specialization from time to time, as evidenced by their Dargie Delights. Specialized inlays, finish, labeling, etc. - only to sell a handful of instruments. Yet somehow they saw it as being worthwhile to do.

Yes, but we're only talking about the finish here. And that already comes with a steep price.

Originally Posted by DrGonzo5150

Those that are here regularly know that EBMM offers over 130,000 build options/codes on their instruments...

Mathematically this is incorrect. That's the number of their combinations of options, not of the options themselves. And the codes are made of portions that reflect each option, quite easy to understand. You can always get impressive numbers by combinations. Another example for this would be that for the middle console (the part between the two front seats) of 5 series BMW there exist 38'000 variations. But there's no way that the customer has 38'000 options.

Options themselves aren't that hard to manage, but the sheer amount of combinations can get out of hand if you don't have computer aided assembly. Imagine how many more errors can happen... and that, together with larger numbers of stored parts, will rise the cost of production considerably.

Naturally, I'd love to have more options as well. Who wouldn't. I'd love to have the old style bridge and string through body and ebony board as options to any (StingRay) order, instead of just getting them in certain packages. Hell, I'd most prefer to be able to sit down with Dargin and "design" my perfect personal instrument. Or two. Or three. Or ten. However, when I'm rocking a stage with my beloved white standard StingRay 4 HH, all those possible options and ideas all don't matter! Because it just works!

And I am with spencer that the used market would become quite a mess.

Originally Posted by Freddels

Benjamin would probably like the 25th Ann with the passive option and the Bongo neck. He would probably prefer to have the option of not having to pay for the preamp and just get what he wants but that's not really an option at this time.

I was thinking exactly the same. Except that he might come to like the active mode once he got used to it and tried it. And the 25th will come as a production model, most probably at a lower price.

Or, try to find some cheap EBMMs on the used market and gut them out.

[T Alan]

Hmmm...If I were you, I'd just order a Big Al and shift my paradigm to thinking of it as a passive instrument with an active option...rather than the other way around.

[T Alan]

...and as for the neck, it is what it is. I own two 'Rays. Think I'd order a Bongo if they offered 6string 'Rays?

[koogie2k]

Interesting post and replies.

Benjamin....not sure if there is a Musicman for you to be honest. What YOU are looking for is what works for YOU and that is all that matters. You know what you want just like I know what I want and look for in a bass or guitar.

We can make suggestions till the cows come home. However, with the available options and what not (I don't have exact numbers.....but it is huge) to add to them just makes that process longer. Keep in mind....many of us have been to the guitar factory and have seen the process from beginning to end. Add more and the process has to be added....which can be a pain in the backside for the company.

I have been around here for quite some time....I have seen them come and go. Honestly, I don't think you are trolling and you have been respectful...cool with me.

EVERYONE - keep in mind...Big Poppa and company love choices. That means other companies and their products. Pops uses them as well as many of us.

Now...I did get a chance to play a 25th Anniv. Bass. I loved it...except the neck. Just did not sit right with me. So, I will have to pass on getting one of those. You all know how much of a "Fanboy" I am...haha...but...if I can't be comfortable with any instrument...I simply cannot buy it.

Same thing is happening to Benjamin. He just cannot buy it knowing he will have to do a serious mod on the instrument. I can see his position and respect it.

Anywho.....have a great day!

[RocketRalf]

Benjamin, welcome! thanks for coming and showing us what outsiders think in a rational and respectful manner. I don't have much to add to what others said. If you want a passive MM, either get a used one and bypass the preamp, or get a Big AL or a 25th Ann, where you'd still have the EQ at your fingertips with a single button. I'm sure you'd find a use to it if you had it, maybe a solo boost or a slap scoop. Think of it as another pedal in your chain

[Big Poppa]

Benjamin

Welcome...and seriously thanks for your comments.

I think the first thing is that you may have disarmed some here because you may assume that your stature in your local market or respect and cred on Talk Bass would instantly carry over here...foreplay may have helped.

Please lets start by not making comments about negative comments regarding p andj basses. I have HUNDREDS of posts praising them and jump to their defense...

Oli...the difference with your coments regarding options is that unlike the bmw I actually have to be able to make all of those and we are a small shop..your view is nice but is not really what we have to be prepared to do.

Benjamin....I'm sorry that there isnt anything on the new or used market that works for you. The first thing when you go past hot shot tech in a local market or internet expert is to understand that the woods are full of very talented and passionate techs that risked their families and friends money because they felt that that translated into a golbal understanding of success. I bristle a little at that. I need you to know that. It is what the artist has to put up with the reviewers. You can critique from a negative standpoint that I dont hit your sweet spot but Ive been slugging it out for over 25 years now and am still standing.

Here is how it goes....opportunity is created when you dont feel the market is being addressed. My dad started it all because Leo didnt believe that slinky strings were viable. Please innovate and introduce what your ideal is...if its valid you will have a happy life with disgruntled customers, greedy attorneys, people ripping you off, accountants......That was a light hearted way of saying be careful what you wish for....there is so much BS that I cannot expect you to know about keeping the wheel running.

I think your basic argument is a little flimsy because the prices of my stuff used is very fair and you can mod it to suit your hearts desire. TO slag the big al and 25th and stuff gets you flamed.

One thing I will tell you. In order to find a home or niche you have to have segment and position that is product driven. Trying to do everything will assure you a new career in hospitality...."Do you want fries with that?"

I wake up every day knowing that I cant make everyone happy...I hope that I can make enough people happy so I can continue to provide for my team and give the world a few extra choices.

[57fenderjazz]

Benjamin, By the way, what bass do you own and play thru your mesa?

[stingray96191]

i can honestly say that from my perspective. There is no other company making instruments that operates like EBMM. If i wasn't already ( and i was ) I am now a customer for life. They really don't make a bad guitar and even at new Prices you get an amazing value. Used is always a way to go too. My Big AL is 90% passive mode these days and thats not a bad thing... But its nice to have the active boost when its there.

Anyway Welcome to the forum.

Erin

[laneline]

Hey BS, you work in a high tech repair shop, instead of lamenting about this
company's product line, seems like a no brainer to me assembling your own bass to your specs wouldn't be that difficult.

[BenjaminStrange]

Originally Posted by Duarte

They do not use the same neck pockets.

Sterlings have the slimmer, 5 bolt, Stingrays use the 6 bolt...they woudn't fit.

Aha! This is helpful. As I'm not super familiar with EB products, I was not aware of this fact. So yes, knowing this would make offering too many neck options would be excessively difficult.

Originally Posted by 57fenderjazz

Benjamin, By the way, what bass do you own and play thru your mesa?

Yes, I'm still an endorsing Mesa artist, and will be until Mesa gets hit by a meteor. Right now I'm playing an old Ovation Magnum, which has a giant neck, which I have ripped the frets out of. I've also gutted the electronics out of this one as well...

Originally Posted by laneline

Hey BS, you work in a high tech repair shop, instead of lamenting about this
company's product line, seems like a no brainer to me assembling your own bass to your specs wouldn't be that difficult.

Yes, I very well could build my own bass. Perhaps some day I will, but for now I enjoy playing existing instruments.

I appreciate those of you who receive my comments in the spirit in which they were given. I understand a bit better now how and why MM does things the way they do - and why they most likely they won't make a bass that caters to my tastes 100%, and that's ok. My intentions here were merely to provide MM with a perspective that is a bit contrary to their market that they are already reaching. MM hasn't reached my market yet, and that's ok too.

MM for me, at this point, is kind of like a woman that I would be attracted to, except that there's a deal breaker involved - like she's a smoker, snores excessively, or likes Phish. The neck shape and the fancy preamps are just stuff I can't get over.

I very well might just buy a Bongo and gut it sometime in the future. I like the neck, the pickups, the shape (very sexy), the balance... everything except for all those knobs and lo-impedance signal. The Big Al, for some reason, is even more appealing at least initially, but the neck is just too small for me, even though it sounds and looks great.

Big Poppa - I meant no disrespect at all, and I strove to make that clear. You make some great instruments and run a good company that touches a great many people, and I dig that. My criticism is only meant to elucidate and perhaps inspire, not to tear you down at all. I understand risks involved in running a business such as yours (I've been in some big bands myself - now THAT's risky business), and I know that you have to take risks from time to time to keep yourself fresh. That's why I offered my opinion - to help inform you of a market that you're not quite reaching, so that if you do decide to move in that kind of direction it won't be totally blind. I don't think I've slagged any of your instruments at all. Heck, I work on your instruments from time to time, and I'm always impressed at how well they are built (unlike some other big companies I could mention). I know it's hard to run a big business (been there, too), and you have my utmost respect for guiding MM through what is probably the most unstable market on earth with such success.

[Caca de Kick]

You mention diggin' the Big Al, but wouldn't want to pay all that money just to gut the electronics.
To me the best way to go about that then is wait til they hit the used market, that way the sting to your wallet isn't as bad.

[paranoid70]

I guess it just comes down to if you don't find what you are looking for with MM basses, look elsewhere. Alot of us guitar players would love a hollow body MM, but if EB doesn't want to spend the resources to develop one, we could find another brand on the market that does. I think the same goes for pure passive basses. It seems they focus on what they do very well rather than trying to hit every possible niche out there.

Nearly everyone on these forums has found something in these basses and guitars that they really love, and many of us play MM exclusively. If it's not for you, it's not for you. Whatever you do, just keep playin.

PS, Phish rules.