Saw my first BFRs!

[Big Poppa]

lance youd find someway to bastardize it......you are the psyicpetof the guitar!

[pjc812]

Originally Posted by Big Poppa

DId the tops suck sufficiently?

I laughed out loud at that. That rarely happens. Still chuckling...

[darren]

I saw my first BFR today. It was a red quilt Petrucci 6-string at Long & McQuade in Burlington.

It was a beautiful-looking piece, for sure. And i hope my comments aren't going to be taken the wrong way, but, well... the top was not as good as i would expect from Music Man. (Note that i did NOT say that it sucks!)

It was a very nice piece of quilted maple for sure. But the finish simply did not do it justice. The "three dimensional" quality of the figure was completely killed by what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat.

I have to be totally honest, guys (and blackball me on the forum if you must... no pun intended). This was not the quality of finish i'd expect to see on a guitar in this price range. I've seen photo-flames that looked as good, and veneers that had more of that chatoyance that makes figured maple so magically deep and exotic-looking.

Sorry, but i have to say i was VERY disappointed. Nice wood, but the finish absolutely killed it.

[darren]

So they've got a blue quilt JP7 BFR hanging on the wall, right at eye level in the Burlington store now.

I'm sad to say it's the same story. There's a bit more of the "3D" aspect to the quilted maple, but it was hanging on a wall with some other guitars with the name of a guy with three initials on the headstock, and i'm sorry, but the finishes on their tops absolutely kicked ass, on guitars that were 2/3 the price of the BFR.

There was a Fender Showmaster hanging nearby... it's about 1/3 the price of the BFR with a finish on it that showed an impressive quilted top way better. And a few Ibanezes for even less.

I found i had to really squint at the BFR to make out the grain, and this is a fairly well-lit store. But again, this guitar was hanging next to some guitars with very comparable quality wood tops, and it looked dark and lifeless, which confirmed for me that the finishes on the BFRs are just way too opaque, which makes them look inferior, even though the woods themselves may not be.

I love my JP7. But would i sell my Lava Pearl JP7 for a walnut quilt BFR? Before seeing these in real life, i would have seriously considered it, as that may be very close to my ideal guitar.

Now?

Probably not.

[Big Poppa]

Darren..feel free to say you dont like something but to attack the quality is crossing the line. Please post a detailed bio of your experience as a finisher or any experience you may have in finishing.

If you saw a PRS that was 1/3 cheaper with a better top that sounds like a killer deal.

Stating personal preference is fabulous. Stating fact with zero basis is hogwash.

[leftyguitarblue]

Originally Posted by brasco68

BP...any chance of a lefty BFR Luke down the road?

Originally Posted by Big Poppa

yes

Phenomenal. Thanks BP!!

[Jimmyb]

Originally Posted by darren

I saw my first BFR today. It was a red quilt Petrucci 6-string at Long & McQuade in Burlington.

It was a beautiful-looking piece, for sure. And i hope my comments aren't going to be taken the wrong way, but, well... the top was not as good as i would expect from Music Man. (Note that i did NOT say that it sucks!)

It was a very nice piece of quilted maple for sure. But the finish simply did not do it justice. The "three dimensional" quality of the figure was completely killed by what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat.

I have to be totally honest, guys (and blackball me on the forum if you must... no pun intended). This was not the quality of finish i'd expect to see on a guitar in this price range. I've seen photo-flames that looked as good, and veneers that had more of that chatoyance that makes figured maple so magically deep and exotic-looking.

Sorry, but i have to say i was VERY disappointed. Nice wood, but the finish absolutely killed it.

Different people look for different things with aesthetics. What is great for one person won't be so for another.

How can you quantify what 'too much black dye' is? How much becomes too much? What do you base it on, your own experience of doing it, or just your opinion?

I can never, ever, understand why someone would want to come onto a company owned forum and criticise the goods that the company makes. If you have an opinion on the subject, that's great, but I think it's rude to criticise the hosts, when they give you a free forum to use.

You don't have to love everything that EBMM produces, there are models that I'm not completely sold on, but I don't feel the need to post saying such.

[Chris G]

I've not tried a BFR or seen one in person but I would have thought that the BFRs would sound and play amongst the best in the shop.

BP and the gang produce some beautiful guitars but it seems that sometimes people get too hung up on colour and finishes and forget what should matter first - the sound and the playability. I bought both my Y2Ds based on that first and finish second.

To say "This top sucks" and "This guitar sucks" are entirely different.

[darren]

Sorry, BP... perhaps the way i used "quality" in the first post was not the right way of articulating what i was trying to say, and i can appreciate how that may have touched a nerve.

I was not attacking the grade of excellence of the finishes or the guitars themselves. (In fact, i don't think i was "attacking" anything at all... but more on this later.) Every EBMM guitar i've seen has had some of the best depth of colour and glass-smooth clearcoat i even imagined was possible on a guitar – or anything else, for that matter... you guys could teach all the major car manufacturers a thing or two about finishing.

What i was trying to say was that the characteristic of translucency and depth that i expected to see was not there. And this expectation is based not only on high-dollar boutique or "private stock" instruments i've seen, but on some of the stunning figured maple tops i've seen on Axis and Y2D models in the past, just so we're comparing apples to apples.

It is my opinion that the BFR finishes i have seen do not meet my expectations set by your own previous efforts in terms of how they complement and enhance the depth and dimension of the figured maple tops.

I may not have first-hand experience in finishing, but i've been studying the art and science (and business) of guitar building for over 20 years, and have certainly read quite a bit on the subject. I've also read (and seen) many first-hand, in-depth accounts of the finishing process from professional and amateur luthiers who document their build processes in detail on various building forums.

So my observations about "what appeared to be too much black dye in the grain and too dark of a tinted clearcoat" are not statements i'm pulling out of my ass. I believe i was stating an informed opinion based on my accumulated knowledge and understanding of the finishing process, not stating fact.

I didn't just write these posts in a knee-jerk reactionary way. I put a lot of thought and careful consideration into what i wrote, in an attempt to be more constructive and informative than merely saying, "that top sucks." I posted my observations and opinions so they might contribute to intelligent discussion on the subject and help make the product better.

To those of you who question my motives or motivation, i would just like to say the following: If a company is not prepared to hear customer feedback on their products – both positive and negative – then i would suggest that they have no business running a public, open forum for their customers (and potential customers) in the first place. As long as the discussion is constructive and respectful, which i feel all of my comments have been thus far, then i see nothing wrong with offering my opinions, even if they may not agree with most of the others here.

[tommyindelaware]

from what i been seeing on scott's photo thread.....the bfr's look nothing short of magnificient !!!!!!!!

[Chris G]

Darren

I take your point. You may know more about this than me but as I understand it the finishing process is influenced by the piece of wood used and every piece of wood is different so the finishing is bound to differ. I know wood is porous so is it possible for a piece of wood to be more porous than another and thus absorb more of the colour?

My Y2Ds (one quilt, one flame) differ from every other Y2D I have seen. I like that. The quilt one is superb, the flame one doesn't have the same depth but the colour is beautiful.

As it happens I have no real interest in the BFRs - I'm not that interested in a Luke and if I was buying a JP6 (which I might) I'd save some cash and get Radiance Red or Mystic Dream.

[Big Poppa]

OPinion I have no problem with. Stating as fact that our quelity is not up to par I get to disagree with .

To say that I have no business operating a public forum if I cant take criticism works both ways...if you can post a very strong opinion and judgement I should be able to respond. If you want to post without getting feedback then there are may other manufacturers forums that are there for fluff.

We take the time to Photogreaph EVERY BFR......If you dont like them , I hope that there sonething we make that you do. If you think that im stupid enough to think that everybody loves everything we offer...i got some land to sell you.

[leftyguitarblue]

Originally Posted by Big Poppa

OPinion I have no problem with. Stating as fact that our quelity is not up to par I get to disagree with .

To say that I have no business operating a public forum if I cant take criticism works both ways...if you can post a very strong opinion and judgement I should be able to respond. If you want to post without getting feedback then there are may other manufacturers forums that are there for fluff.

We take the time to Photogreaph EVERY BFR......If you dont like them , I hope that there sonething we make that you do. If you think that im stupid enough to think that everybody loves everything we offer...i got some land to sell you.

ohhhhh, I know a guy in Brooklyn, he says he's got this bridge for sale...CHEAP!

[Jimmyb]

Stating your opinion once is fine, but you have two consecutive posts criticising the quality of the finishes. Then, when someone calls you on it, you again post and again state that you're dissapointed because they don't meet your expectations.

One of the things I always try to bear in mind, is that these forums don't just act as a place where we can all get together and talk about the guitars that we own and love, they also act as an information resource where potential purchasers can research information before purchasing their guitars. By posting about guitars that you have seen in a shop, you not only potentially deter the purchaser from visiting that shop, you also deter the purchaser from looking at that model.

I just think it's a bit rude. Sorry, but in my mind it's the same as standing in the shop and shouting your opinion.

[darren]

My comment about the amount of dye and density of the tinted clear came from observations of other instruments that used tinted clearcoats with similarly dense results. Allow me to explain what i know about the process, just so people don't think i'm full of "hogwash".

For the figuring in the maple to really shine, light has to reflect off the cellular structure in the wood.

The "dye and sand back" approach has been used for years to enhance the figure in exotic woods. Leaving more black in the grain definitely enhances the visible pattern of the figuring, sometimes at the expense of that "3D" effect, because the black dye absorbs light. You get more pronounced figure, but less depth and "sparkle". It's a fine balance to try and get right.

Tinted clear coats cut the amount of [light] getting through the finish to the wood, and back through the finish to the viewer's eye. Tinted clearcoats can be used very effectively to produce rich and radiant colour (it's how candy-apple finishes are done), but too much colour in the clear can have the end result of cutting contrast in the finish, because the brightest light reaching the eye has been filtered on its way to hitting the wood, then filtered again on its way out. Some luthiers avoid the use of tinted clears altogether, preferring to accomplish all of their colour effects using light coats of dye, thus allowing more light to reflect off the wood's cellular structure, preserving more of the "3D" effect.

So, based on my knowledge and my observations of the colour density and contrast in the BFR figured tops i've seen, it seems that's what may be happening on the instruments i've directly observed. Filtering the light with a tinted clearcoat and reducing the reflectivity of the wood underneath with a bit too much dye can have the end result that i observed in the instruments i've seen.

And to BP: Yes, as a matter of fact, you make products that i like very much. I don't even hesitate to tell people that my JP7 is the finest, most playable, best-sounding guitar i have ever owned. And as you can see, i can be a picky guy.

As i said, i was hoping to contribute to intelligent discussions on the subject, and i welcome rebuttal and questioning of my opinions and observations. But in your responses, you haven't actually addressed any of my observations or concerns at all... all you've done is question my credentials and call my opinons and observations "hogwash".